Tim;

I see what your saying, but I think I have to disagree. I think it is really important that parents (whaterver group they belong to) feel enpowered to have a say in the decisions that are made about their child's education. Many parents look to the parent leadership in their schools to be those people who can give then this type of information and advice. I don't think it's our job to tell people what to think, but I do think it is our job to inform, educate, and teach parent how to navigate the system. I believe that parents often feel more comfortable in this sort of a peer to peer relationship than they do with school staff or administration. My only beef with parents groups who say they have no place in "politics" whatever that looks like for them, is that it fosters this idea that we (parents) have no place in influencing education policy, and I just don't believe that to be true. You can't have the same impact as an individual as you can as a collective voice. There are so many issues to find common ground, childhood obesity, school saftey, and others. Your idea of a separate group advocacy can fill that gap, but don't you find that parents are already busy, busy people and trying to get them to join yet another group is difficult and thus counter productive? I think when you have these discussions within your established parent group, people who would never join a advocacy group begin to see that they too can make a difference. In that setting advocacy begins to look different. Even when we disagree having the discussion is a good thing. I've been in situations that our PTA was going to take a stance on an issue and after having the discussion and hearing the opinions of other parents we're altered our position, found common ground, or decided to stay neutral, but at least we had the discussion.

To the PTA issue. I think that some of the criticism of PTA are fair. I think that over the 100 plus years of existance, they at some points "gotten off track", as I would discribe, but I don't believe its ever been self serving, it has always about kids. At some point most orginizations turn inward on themselves and start falling into the trap of "group think".

Truth be told, competition has been a good thing for PTA, it has forced us to re-examine who we are, where are we going, and who is it that we serve. I've seen a lot of positive changes in the last few years. For the first time in many years PTA will show an increase in overall membership this year, I hope that says that we're moving in the right direction.

I have heard the idea that Shawn expressed that PTA says in effect "if you don't agree with us, then we don't want you" well although that sounds harsh and I certainly wouldn't say it that way, I think that idea comes form the fact that at some point, every orginization needs to try and define itself. You can't be all things to all people, and be successful. In a growing and changing culture, PTA has had to recognise that it is impossible to represent the interest of ALL parents, but I do believe they try to speak for ALL children.

At the end of the day there are very few Saint and Sinners in the world just a lot of in between.

Have a great one,

Ann

Hey All --

A whole bunch of points:

1. The misspelling in the thread title is killing me, as it's not editable and it shows up in our message board preview boxes throughout the site. Grrrr..... amazing how little things can burrow under your skin

2. Let's keep the tone constructive.

3. I can see where Shawn's pique comes from because the way this thread has gone is the way many PTO v PTA threads go. I'll try and explain what Imean.

I believe that many PTA folks take the criticism of PTA politics as a criticism of the positions PTA takes. Therefore, the reaction is to assume that the critics disagree with the positions (critic must be a conservative religious or pro-voucher or anti-taxes, etc.). And then the debate moves to the content of the stances, which is really not where it belongs. (As a bonus, it also creates the kind of emotion and hurt feelings popping up above....)

While there are certainly individuals who feel that way (disagree vehemently with PTA stances) and groups who disaffiliate because of those stances, I don't believe the content of the stances is the fundamental problem for PTA.

For many, many really good-minded (and often politically active) parents and parent leaders, the PTX at their children's school just isn't the place for political activism, especially on the state or national scale. Advocacy at the school/district level? -- very possibly. (The math curriculum isn't working and a ton of parents want a change -- likely the PTX shares the voice. The new busing/walker policy has 100 little ones walking down a busy street -- likely the PTX shares the voice.) But advocacy on the federal budget or school voucher laws? -- just a misfit for most parents' conception of what a PTX should be.

And that has 100% nothing to do with those groups being suburban or white or urban. And it certainly has nothing to do with them not caring about others. By definition, all parent groups are led and entirely manned by folks looking to help others.

At times, it feels like PTA is trying to define what helping has to look like ("If you're not helping in just the way we say is right, then you're selfish" is the implication.) And that really hacks off a lot of people.

MichiganPTAMom -- I found your post to be really helpful and carefully done and I appreciate your sharing your perspective. Sounds like you and I may be very similar in a lot of respects.

But for me, the parent group at my kids' school (I too am heavily involved) is about bringing parents together, growing community, building involvement and serving the school and the school families and the kids. The vast majority of parents agree with and prefer that conception of parent group work. I don't think that conception is bad or selfish (to say the least). I think it's different than the PTA conception.

And I'm heavily involved in politics and I'm heavily committed to causes that help children. I just don't mix that advocacy with my parent group work, because I believe that doing so would run counter (hurt) those community and involvement goals I listed above.

The model I like? Great, active, community- and involvement-building and service-focused parent groups at every school. And a stand-alone advocacy organization (like an LEF) at the district level. In that way, you get the best of both worlds, in my humble opinion.

Tim

Hi Shawn --

Please email me (This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.). I sent a message to your registered address (admittedly from 2 years back...) and it bounced.

Thanks,

Tim

Shawn;

I think your looking over your shoulder a bit too much. It's not all about you. I don't think anyone is insinating anything about your views only experessing their own. I don't believe calling people "idiots" and other name calling for expressing their opinion is ever a good debating tool and it certainly does foster dialogue....but is does work well for bullies.

Whooaaaa!!! Slow down and read the posts from the beginning

I am a card carrying PTA and PTO member. My beef with PTA is the BS that they give PTA's or others wishing to become a PTO

They're the exact same thing... If PTA didnt railroad and feed lies about the differences most wouldnt have a problem.

I pay my $5 dues and as a paying member AND voting member have every right to point out what about the PTA sucks and is BS and what I dont agree with.

The PTA does many wonderful things but also does a bunch of stupid things IMHO. All can be veriefied by a quick google search.

I have spent 15 yrs in PTA and PTO's. PTA is not the end all be all of child advocacy or the best. Many groups do worse and better than PTA.

I dont beleive PTA gives it all or you get 'bang for your buck', my opinion but also one shared by thousand (and maybe 100 of thousands)

A PTO is just as easy to form and can do most things (and a few things PTA's cant) but for some reason PTA seems to think spreading disinformation is the way to inform parents about it is the correct way.

I spent 15+ years defending the constitution and 'equal rights for all' NOT 'equal rights and preferential treatment for some' so stuff the white bread neighboorhood and GAY Bull.... ALL get treated the same and are afforded their 'days or clebrations or propoganda... Not one or the other was my whole point. Whether you believe GAY is OK or not is irrelevent but someone whos does or doesnt also gets the right to prostest, ignore or remove their child from that class, celebration, etc.

When the PTA CEO gets on national TV (or any groups spokeperson for that matter) and says she/he only wants people (parents) that are grassroot activist and thye dont need the others, has something wrong with their overall view or parents, parenting and education.

One does not have to agree (or even join PTA) to be an activist or advocate for their OR any childs education or wellbeing.

I disagree vehemently (and sometimes not so much) with PTA's message, ideas (like 6 accountants and a board that makes 6 figure incomes), the 'U must be PTA to matter or advocate' so I put the facts out on what I know. If people dont do more research to see what I have to say and just beleive what I type, then well they're guillible. I try to put the facts and nothing more till people get stupid and insinuate my views (eg separate but equal BS, or that I'm from a rich white neighboorhood)

I beleive in 3 things
Democracy and the all the rights that come with it
The right to vote and then complain to cause change
The right to be free from idiots.

2 out 3 isnt bad.

If someone joins PTA or doesnt isnt the point. Its the fact that PTA/PTO or whatever acronym you chose are

Nonprofits
and serve basically the same purpose- bettering our childrens education and lot in life.
The rest can be tweaked to fit the group


I am Shawn. I approve this message

Shawn;

Come on, many of your comments are distorted and only half of the story. I don't agree with some of the positions that PTA takes, and they are certainly more to the left then my personal positions, but the good that PTA has done for the children of this Nation is without question. What you seem to miss in your comments is that regardless of what we might feel about the choices of the adults in many of the situations have made, it isn't the fault of the children who have been placed onto those situations.

I'm a white middle class suburban mom. I have four great boys who, thank God have just about everything they could even want or need. I'm involved in there education and things are hunkey dorey, BUT I have come to realize that there are millions of children in this country who do not have a caring adult to advocate for them. It serves us all well, that PTA is out there championing the cause of these children. ALL OF OUR CHILDREN. We all benefit in one way or another if all the children in this country succeed.

The elephant that is always in the room with these discussions that is never mentioned is the fact that the fall in PTA membership came not because of lobbying but when PTA took a stance in the late '60's and early 70's on the desegration of public schools. PTA took the stance that separate was not equal and that didn't go over well with white surbaban America at the time.

I understand that some of the stances that PTA has taken has put them at odds with certain gourps, school choice for instance. PTA isn't against parents, but they are defenders the public education system. In many ways I see that some of the "choices" are returning us to a place of the haves and have-nots, seperate and not equal. I don't think that's what we really want in this country do we?

To correct one of your statement Michigan PTA did not lobby for a 5% pay raise for teachers, we supported proposal 5 which was for guaranteed funding for schools, and with that support we asked for cost containment of teacher healthcare and pensions.

I think child advocacy and legislative involvement is an important part of being an involved parent. Just like any orginization that we join it's up to us members to voice our opinions and influance the policies of the orginizations we join. We certainly have more influance on the inside than the outside.

Anyway that's my 2 cents.

Julie J.