Originally posted by Michelle B:

True, this website does offer a lot to groups that aren't PTA (the 75% number does include schools that have NO Parent group so I would guess that the % is much smaller)
But still, there are only 7000+ members out of HOW many groups out there?

...


99.9% of the resources and trainings etc are free.

On the first part: The 75% number has been printed by National PTA, by the way (can't find the link right now). It's not exact but it's the most accurate estimate out there. 83,000 K-8 schools in US. PTA has about 23,000 units total (including international, high schools and preschools). For argument's sake, let's call it 20,000 units in U.S. K-8. It's a conservative estimate, if anything, to say that fewer than 25% of K-8 parent groups remain PTA.

Also, the 7500 or so number that you refer to is the number of people registered just for this forum. There are dozens of other networking chances (thousands of folks at our conferences, for example)that number doesn't represent, most notably the 85,000 magazines (70+ pages each) that we send free to every K-8 parent group in the country. If those articles, which center on highlighting the best programs and ideas from groups across the country, aren't networking I don't know what is.

On the second part: Free, I suppose, if you choose to somehow ignore the $1000 per group in dues....

But I guess I'm just being a stickler.

Tim

(PS -- I totally screwed up the quoting thing in this one. Sorry.)

[ 09-20-2004, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: Rockne ]

Just a few corrections-

Politics: As much as PTA denies its involvement, any rational person can see the political agenda of the National PTA and some (not all) state chapters. For example, what does abortion rights have to do with an elementary school PTA?

do not disagree that PTA is political, for me, that is one of the main reasons I belong because most of the work PTA does on a National level has benefited and will continue to benefit my child and my school. National does not have a position on abortion. This is incorrect. There are two state PTAs that have a resolution supporting parental notification and that is something that the members in those states, at their conventions, voted in. For example, Nevada has a policy that we DO NOT have a position on anything divisive, such as abortion. That is part of our autonomy.

A broad set of state rules can and has squelched growth and successful opportunites for local chapters.

True there are some rules in regards to PTA that are directed down from National and State, however, they are generally as they relate to resolutions (we do support After School Programs, etc) But PTAs can and do operate autonomously, which has gotten us in trouble media wise, (local PTA passed a resolution to oppose constitutional ammendment etc etc)
Seriously, what kind of good work would be opposed by PTA?

By the way, I could care less if the PTA had a liberal or conservative agenda; they shouldn't have any.

That is a valid argument.

Being part of PTA means you are not alone, there is always someone you can ask for help from. Can you say the same about PTO?"

Yes. I've found so much more information, support and ideas from this website alone than anything PTA ever offered in the years I was involved with it.

True, this website does offer a lot to groups that aren't PTA (the 75% number does include schools that have NO Parent group so I would guess that the % is much smaller)
But still, there are only 7000+ members out of HOW many groups out there? The networking is fairly limited to this site and yes, there are greater networking opportunities through PTA. And true, not all groups use it but it is there.

And what's ironic, this environment welcomes PTA'ers,

I cannot in all honesty say that I have ALWAYS felt welcome here. There have been things (I WILL not get into) but I can say that it is getting better. Tim surprised me in posting a positive PTA story I sent him. I nearly fell off my seat. This site has great potential for all groups but I don't know if it's completely there yet. I have PTA friends who say they will never come back. I'm just a stickler I guess.

Well, every state PTA convention in the country has a fairly significant entrance charge, so "free" is up for debate.

As far as I can tell, including resource manuals, basic and advanced leadership trainings, advocacy trainings, parent classes etc etc etc, convention is the ONLY thing that is charged for and as I have seen in planning our own conventions, registrations generally just pay for the building we hold it in (It would be nice if these could be donated to us and then perhaps we wouldn't have to charge registration fees... but in a perfect world...)
99.9% of the resources and trainings etc are free.

[ 09-20-2004, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: Michelle B ]

reruho --

Thanks for dropping in. A couple of clarificatiosn first.

Originally posted by reruho:
When a PTA wants to go PTO it is always about money.

Often, not always.

When you disband a PTA, you don't get to keep your money. You are required by IRS regulations to donate that money to another 501(c)(3)or a nonprofit organzation.

True, but in 100% of the PTA disbands I've seen the group has simply spent down its funds before disbanding or donated the funds to the school before disbanding. Have never seen a single group (and I've interacted with hundreds and hundreds of PTA disbanders) lose its money.

Most people do not realize the benefits they receive for a couple of reasons: (1) They don't read the material they receive from the State PTA and National PTA; and (2)They never attend training provided free of cost to any interested PTA member.

Well, every state PTA convention in the country has a fairly significant entrance charge, so "free" is up for debate.

But, more importantly this argument kind of misses the point. You're correct that most of the groups who leave PTA don't use available resources. To me, that's a perfectly reasonable reason to leave.

An analogy: I joined a gym. It cost $90 per month. It was a perfectly fine gym. Nice people. Good equipment. Exercise is good for me. The gym did nothing wrong.

But for a variety of reasons (had kids, it was slightly out of the way from a new job, I like to run outdoors...) I wasn't using the gym very much. I cancelled my membership.

Should I have continued to pay my dues because the gym was a nice gym? Methinks not.

Anyway, reruho, I am really happy that your group is getting good value from PTA. I suspect you're doing great work for kids, just like tens of thousands of other groups around the country.

Sounds like you are one of the lucky groups in the country that has an extremely active council-level PTA. To me, that's usually a make-it-or-break-it detail in the PTO v PTA math. There are many areas within states and even many whole states where PTA is not nearly as active as what you're describing, even though the costs are the same for groups in those areas.

Most folks in this forum would agree that if your group decides that PTA is for you -- wonderful.

I and many others simply feel that choosing PTO is an equally fine decision.

Tim

Reruho says....

"When a PTA wants to go PTO it is always about money."

Huh?? I don't know if you have participated in the process of dissolving a PTA and beginning a PTO, but I have. "Money" is only one of several elements that cause so many groups to make this change.

1) Let's tackle the money issue. A disbanding PTA cannot just give their remaining money to any organization. The State PTA requires the money be given to them. I served as PTA President for two years at my former elementary school (which now has a PTO), and, for the approximately one thousand dollars we sent to National/State/County PTA in dues, I saw essentially nothing come back in return that cannot be accessed elsewhere for little or nothing. Other than being able to use the moniker "PTA", what were we getting for the money? Not enough to keep sending $1K away yearly. By the way, PTO Today offers Leadership events across the nation, so you don't lose out on that opportunity, either.

But there are other reasons, too:

--Local autonomy: When you're a PTA, your local chapter may want to make bylaw changes to benefit your local chapter, but if the state doesn't agree with it, they can deny it. A state office that truly knows the needs of every neighborhood school throughout a diverse state simply does not exist. A broad set of state rules can and has squelched growth and successful opportunites for local chapters. In a PTO, you are free from these shackles; do what's best for your kids!! There are plenty of ways to receive the same assistance as a National or State PTA gives, but the NPN, PTO Today, etc....cannot come down and give edicts from on high to the detriment of the goals of your individual organization.

3) Politics: As much as PTA denies its involvement, any rational person can see the political agenda of the National PTA and some (not all) state chapters. For example, what does abortion rights have to do with an elementary school PTA? Give me that connection, would you? I totally disagree with any group where you must pay dues that forces many Americans to give money to a group that diametrically opposes their own beliefs, but they feel like they "have" to join to really be a part of their child's school volunteering environment. A PTO is NON-political. If the group wants to partner with other groups to affect area, state, or even national legislation, they can certainly do that (when the issue directly affects children, and not some other agenda). But I know I'm not paying some "lobbyist" for the PTA a bunch of money to espouse views I may totally disagree with.

By the way, I could care less if the PTA had a liberal or conservative agenda; they shouldn't have any.


So, more than money, there's autonomy and an inclusive environment, not encumbered by politics, that is found in being a PTO.

In closing, another quote:

"Being part of PTA means you are not alone, there is always someone you can ask for help from. Can you say the same about PTO?"

Yes. I've found so much more information, support and ideas from this website alone than anything PTA ever offered in the years I was involved with it. And what's ironic, this environment welcomes PTA'ers, PTO'ers, anyone that simply wants to advance the educational experience of children.

Now that I'm a part of PTO, I've yet to meet a PTA official in my county that wants to partner and make a difference. They'll only work with you "their" way, the PTA way. Gee, that's being inclusive. What are they scared of? Who are they really working for, the kids or an acronym?

I am a PTA member and have been a PTO member. I would never go back to PTO. When a PTA wants to go PTO it is always about money. When you disband a PTA, you don't get to keep your money. You are required by IRS regulations to donate that money to another 501(c)(3)or a nonprofit organzation.
Your membership must vote to PTO.
Most people do not realize the benefits they receive for a couple of reasons: (1) They don't read the material they receive from the State PTA and National PTA; and (2)They never attend training provided free of cost to any interested PTA member.
My County Council holds Leadership Development Conferences (Fall and Spring),a Priorty Items Workshop,a Health and Safety Workshop,a Legislative Workshop along with 8 regular scheduled meetings with informational programs at each. Our superintedent attends every meeting speaking on current topics and he takes questions from the floor. Our Council has teams of experienced people that will go to a school and do training at a time convienent to the local unit. Our State Board of Directors will send people to assist anytime it is requested. We have a State Office that is there 5 days a week to help the local units. Principals in our district like PTA because they have someone to call when there are problems.
Our Annual Awards banquet has an attendance of 700+. And, everyone of our School Board members attend every year. The one year they had a conference at the same time, they did a special video presentation for the banquet.Our Council also sponsors an Eye Glass Fund to provide students that do not have the funds or insurance with professional eye exams and glasses. We have done this for 30+ years. We have had a scholarship program for 30+ years.
Being part of PTA means you are not alone, there is always someone you can ask for help from. Can you say the same about PTO?

I have never nor as an officer in state, ever required a certain number of people to be in attendance to come speak. The only thing I can think is that your Presidents attendance would require using funds to travel and we don't want to use funds in-efficiently(grouping visits) If it was for the purpose of dissolving and State declined then they missed the opportunity to present their side and at least you did it correctly. Like you, I have units that are leaving not a lot-2 or 3, which made me look into everything also. I personally still believe that the basics, not necessarily the people involved, fits my concerns. I care about my child, but ideally, I want to change the world.(yes, my goals are large but hey, dream big) I tried to do this on my own but my voice was barely a whisper. I am making a difference now(including work with the American Cancer Soceity) It works for me and for many like me who care about the bigger picture.
Cliques- This is not a PTA phenomenon, people group, build cliques, it's the pack mentality. I won't and can't judge any organization based on the actions of it's members(this includes PTA, religion, etc) I can't judge any group based on the he saids she saids because if I did, I would have missed out on a lot of incredible opportunities and experiences. The core of the beliefs the changes they effect, that is what matters.
I'm glad that your change has worked for you.

[ 09-05-2003, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Michelle B ]