Dave... Take a chill pill! OMG! A little strong? Between you and Jon, I think I will just quit posting. You two seem to have all the answers and whoa be it to anyone who disagrees with the two of you. Personally, I'm tired of it.

If you are using the school's non-profit/EIC number to run your events, if you are using the school's non-profit/EIC number to run fundraisers, IF YOU ARE USING THE SCHOOL'S NON-PROFIT/EIC NUMBER YOU ARE LEGALLY PART OF THE SCHOOL STRUCTURE. Just because you call yourself a PTA/PTO and have bylaws is beside the point. That doesn't make you a bad group or anything. The way you describe it(get ready for a big exaggeration), I could put up a cardboard sign and write MetzyMom's Hamburgers on it, put it in front of my house and it would be okay to sell them because I had drawn up a menu with prices and good intentions. Fact is, Mr. P, that if you use the school's non-profit/EIC numbers YOU ARE PART OF THE SCHOOL. Does that mean you are not a PTA/PTO? No. It just means you are not legally running your own business. Does that mean the school will step in and audit your books and/or take the money? No. Does it mean anything other than you don't have your own numbers? Yes. There are consequences for not doing your own paper work. Will that come back to bite most groups in the butt? No. But it will bite a few of them.

Lighten up, chill out and consider that while you have given some good advice in the past, sometimes you can have an off day or subject. I do. Everyone does. And I caution you to be a little nicer when you disagree with someone. That may come back to bite you in the butt.

(Sorry Tim. Just had to get that off my chest.)

Dave P

While technically you are correct, don't think for a minute that if something goes awry with the PTO or funds that it isn't the school board and administration that won't bear the brunt of everything. In most people's eyes the PTO IS the school, no matter what the IRS says. The notes come home in backpacks just like school notes. While it might not be in the school boards jurisdiction to "audit", I think your solutions aren't worth the animosity they are bound to cause.

And by that comment, I have replaced MetzyMom as the "most hated poster ever".

Allow me to make a few corrections here.

A PTA or a PTO that is organized as a private organization is not a part of the school administrative structure - period! This is not conditional on a thing! If your organization has not filed all the necessary paper work as a business (business lisc), tax exemption (501(c)(3)), incorporation documents, asked for an EIN, or any other condition you wish to establich is meaningless and not material. What is material is the organizing document, what many call the by laws, if you have em you are a seperate business enity. The only possible exception to this is if those by laws make you a part of the school and the school board has accepted you as such, an agency of the governemnt, I have yet to read any that do that! If they do then you are not a PTO or a PTA in fact, maybe in name, and that would be rare! Metzy I am sorry if this seems a little strong, your situation may indeed be the exception (as a PT(x) that does not have any organizing documents might be), I am dealing with what is the "norm" or the vast majority of such organizations and I want absolutely no confussion here. I have seen a lot of posts similar to the orginal poster where someone has the misconception that because the PT(x) does its thing at the school it is subject to the whims of the district administrators because they said so!

We have many confussions regarding our organizations, this is but one of them and the answer to determining any status is very simple - contact a business lawyer or CPA and ask them what your status is and have them put it in writting if you need to!

Originally posted by DaveP:
Ok here is a direct answer.

Justme, someone is overstepping their authority massively! You need to contact all the other PTO/PTAs in your area and get this under control. If you allow this to stand you will be subjecting the PTO/PTAs to government intrusion beyond their authority. Also involve your state representative. As a first step I would send a letter to who ever told you this asking to cite the legal authority for requiring this and asking for the authorization to deny PTOs access to schools who do not comply. Next, take this to the next school board meeting and make a lot of noise. The argument will run along the lines that the PTOs are not auditted and therefore it is our responsibility to do so. Ask them when they will be auditing JC Penny'sm WalMart, K-Mart, Bloomingdales and other private business' since they donate to schools across the country.

Whoa. Deep breaths, DaveP.

LACSPTO -- I wouldn't jump (leap, hurtle myself...) to the same conclusions that DaveP did here. It's not uncommon for school admin types to think that they need to or can audit parent groups. Often, that thought comes from good people with good intentions.

How about a simple, friendly conversation with the involved parties before ringing the alarm bells and calling in the cavalry?

As Critter and Metzy pointed out, the admininstrators may even technically be in the right when it comes to their rights, depending on your group's status.

Whether your group is officially separate or not, the best solution in both cases is cooperation. Even if you're not officially separate, parent involvement is best promoted with an empowered parent group.

Find out what the administrators concerns are. Share your own concerns. And collaborate on a great solution.

Tim

[ 01-26-2004, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Rockne ]

I want to second Metzy. Parent groups call themselves by many names, none of which have an "official" definition except PTA. We've read many times in this forum about parent groups that do all the traditional "PTO" work, but are really arms of the school administration, not separate legal entities. And for many, many groups, that works just fine and they are happy. I bet it's even hard to tell on the surface if a parent group is separate or under the admin. DaveP assumed your group was set up as a separate entity, but you didn't say that for certain.

Yes, if your PTO has its own tax id number, its own bank accounts, its own bylaws, and especially if your group is a federally-registered 501c3 charity like many PTO's, then the school board doesn't have legal jurisdiction over your financial records beyond what you must supply to the general public. But, if your group runs its money through the school's bank accounts, or even just use the school's tax id number on your group's bank account, then the money belongs to the school and the board the same jurisdiction over "your" money as it does over the school's budget. And I was told once that even if you just store your money in the school's safe, it could be considered the school's money (whoever has "care, custody, and control" of the money, owns the money).

In reference to DaveP's comments about an audit. He's right about word usage...the precise use of the term "audit" means a very specific legal review and opinion rendered by a registered independent auditor. HOWEVER, in the world of PTO, we use the term audit when we really should use the term "review". It's just that the word "audit" has certain connotations that make it more meaningful than the generic word "review". In essence, what we need to do is a through financial review of our books every fiscal year, but not necessarily hire a CPA firm to render a legal opinion. Don't get scared off by the legal-eese.

From the original post by LACS PTO:

I was under the assumption that since we are considered a separate entity from the school that this did not need to be done.

They have every right to do as they please with the money if you are doing business under the school umbrella. Being considered a separate entity is NOT the same as being a separate entity. Are you listed separately with the IRS? Your own non-profit/EIC number? If you are, then the school has no actual rights to your money unless there is something in your bylaws to say different.

As for Dave's post:

The PTO/PTA is a seperate organization. It is NOT a part of the department of education, the school board, or even the school. The school board has NO authority over it, except to the extent that the PTO uses school facilities under the rules established for such use for ANY private organization (read - boy scouts, girl scouts, booster clubs, kiwanias, etc).

The PTO is NOT a separate organization unless it is filed as a separate organization with the IRS. Each of the groups listed at the end of that sentence has their own IRS status, which is why the school doesn't offer to audit them...lol...

Our group uses the school non-profit number and as I've tried to explain to them time and time again, any money they raise actually belongs to the school, and they could spend the money as if it were their own, which it is. It is also theirs to audit if they so choose. Sad, but true.

It is not enough to have your own bank account and your own records. You must be legally filed as your own entity. Do this, and you won't need to worry about the school or the district stepping in. Then Dave's post would be right on target.