And NO, it's not my job to worry about the happiness of someone outside my community's kids, or someone else's need for something that "the government" should be providing for them.

Have a feeling that you've been getting a lot of this rhetoric??
You have all the answers and I say go for it! It doesn't sound like you have any objections that you can't overcome with a rebuttal and you should be able to win over the majority.
I can see the concern over skaters but to be so cold towards special needs children? It's not just sad, it's pathetic.

Well--I've done a lot of research since I started this thread, and have found out some things. I got in touch with some folks at Boundless Playgrounds, and they've done over 60 playgrounds, some are HUGE (25,000 sq. feet!), ALL RAMPED. And some are hardly in "great" neighborhoods. They haven't had any feedback yet about this being an issue! It's probably because:

1.The ramps aren't that long and go up only a foot at a time over 10-12 feet. They are also wide enough for a wheelchair, but not wide enough to do the tricks that they want.

2. The railings are too high and short for effective tricks, and have large posts at the end, so there is no room for error. The platforms they'd take off from aren't long enough to get going really well either.

3. Errors on these playgrounds are PAINFUL, as sometimes you land on another piece of equipment.

4. The ramps aren't smooth--most are punched metal, some are grid-like, but either way they don't make for a good ride, and they could really chew up board wheels when doing turns.

5. These playgrounds are community treasures, and are usually protected lovingly by police and the community alike.

6. Signs ARE effective in that you've made it PERFECTLY CLEAR this behavior is NOT acceptable, so that when the cops come there's no question about what's wrong. They also help with the liability issue--you've made it public that this is a rule.

And as unfair as this may sound, I'm also of the mind that this might be less about potential problems and more about suddenly realizing kids "not normal" will become part of the scenery.

I think this also has to do with feeling "powerless"--the executive board of my group are the founders, and while the ramps weren't in the original plan, this is the way we've decided to go. While we try to put as much to vote as possible--if we were to vote on all issues all the time--we'd never get anywhere. I looked back at the flyers/letters I sent out, and minutes from our meetings, and I think we made it very clear we were looking to make THE BEST playground we could, and include the handicapped as much as we could. I think some people are having a problem with us wanting to do something for the school/community, and they feel it's being forced upon them. While I sympathize about feeling powerless--I feel this playground has moved from being something nicer for OUR kids to something that could really be a good thing for ALL kids (if we can raise the money that is!), and that while the "few" have valid feelings, they don't meanmore than someone else's either.

True, there really doesn't seem to be any need for all the whistles and bells as there aren't any handicapped people in our school (not to our knowledge at least)--YET. I keep thinking about how MY kid would feel if he, God Forbid, ever needed a ramp to be able to hang out with his friends and there wasn't one there. OR if I, God forbid, ever needed a ramp to be able to play with my kids, or help someone if no "able" bodied person was there to help. Now that we have them in the master plan, it seems wrong to take them out.

And NO, it's not my job to worry about the happiness of someone outside my community's kids, or someone else's need for something that "the government" should be providing for them. But you know what--if we can do it, I think we should. I like to think myself and some other people out there are maybe a little more thoughtful than the jerks in my town's government--who not only "upgraded" our town's playground with some more non-handicapped friendly equipment, but also kept the SAND as the surfacing AND added a nice high rubber curb around it WITH NO RAMP to make really sure no one with a wheelchair or walker could access it!

[ 06-20-2004, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: kmamom ]

couple of the ideas here that are really good-
The gates are terrific!! Skaters want to stay on the board and get on the ramp. The gate is terrific. Also the matting that the skaters are complaining about is a definite must but will it still be easily used by people with wheelchairs?
Detailed more sentimental signs will help -
I found a website that talks about skating in South Jersey (just in case you want to get into their little minds for a while) It has a picture of a skater next to No Skateboarding signs under old school- articles on skaters who got charged with trespassing but the common theme is that these kids just want a place to skate. (we didn't have skate park here when I was a kid so there wasn't that option then)
www.homestead.com/tiggerwigger/Skateboarding.html
It also gives you a listing of the skate parks in New Jersey. I still say go to the source. They know better than anyone what would deter them from skating somewhere.
Perhaps your next project could be a skatepark.
Link to school damage and skateboarding
www.adn.com/alaska/story/5194658p-5127555c.html
If you have a skatepark nearby, you're far less likely to get a bunch of them (there are always a few bad in with the good) if you give them a place to skate, your problems will be far less.
You ask

How do I get people to see past that mode of thinking?

Answers. Arm yourself with information and have an answer for their concerns. As for it being the best, the best will last. It will save money in the long run if it's done well because it won't have to be done again.

Aren't sleepwalkers sleepwalkers lovely? They are guaranteed to come out everytime right at the very end of all your hardwork and research (which I presume was presented at some meeting they didn't bother to attend.) I would stick with your plans. It seems other posters had no problems with ramps at their schools and I agree it should be accessable for all. Perhaps, as Bertha stated - and I assume there is a sign posted somewhere at your school - the sign could be positioned near the playground. Good luck [img]tongue.gif[/img]

nonsequitur--the sleepwalkers are KILLING me! From the BEGINNING this was promoted as a handicapped accessible playground, which is why we actually had a good turnout from our community at our cut-a-thon--people read that and thought it was a good idea. What REALLY bothers me are the people who can't understand why we want to build such a big, beautiful playground--they think it's silly, wasteful and unnecessary--"good enough" is good enough. If we have the space and can do it, why shouldn't we?

How do I get people to see past that mode of thinking?

Well, I'm like a dog with a bone, as is my grant writer. I did some research, and in Australia (BIG help ) they have this AWESOME rubber matting that looks like cobblestone, and they somehow have integrated into their sidewalk systems, especially in Melbourne. There were a LOT of complaining pro-skateboard websites about those, so that is obviously effective! In California, there are quite a few "skateboard deterrent" companies, but their stuff is mostly to be used with concrete, though they do have bump things to put on rails, so at least I know there is help out there.

Never having been a skateboarder, nor knowing any, I don't know what really appeals to them. Our ramps would be 10 feet long with railings going into a platform, then the ramp turns at a 90 degree angle, then the same thing once gain. Gates with locks were suggested, and those with wheelchairs in town could be given keys or the combination. Combination locks were seriously looked at since we could have a copy of the conbination at the police station for people from out of town, but that's just too complicated, and besides how long would it take before the combination got out? Another suggestion is to have gates at the bottom of the ramps that open IN by pushing, but to get back out you'd have to release a locking device.

I've checked with a town in upstate NY that has a ramped playground, and they haven't had any problems, and from what I've been seeing on the web, it really doesn't seem to be an issue as ar as the playgrounds go. I've put an email into Boundless Playgrounds to see what they suggest.

I'm thinking what we'll do is push ahead with the ramped plan. We'll use that in our fundraising letter as an "enticement." If by December, when we place the order it's painfully obvious that we won't have the funding we need, we'll just go with Plan B, the smaller, rampless one.

Am I wrong for pushing ahead with this? I feel specific play pieces definitely go to vote, but this ramp thing I'd like to keep nonnegotiable until we find out how the funding is going.

I think the ramps are a great idea. And if there is that much concern schedule your meeting and vote Robert's Rules most likely apply thus both sides have to make a point. The PTO has a better chance at this since you will have the back pack express to get out more info. If the vote is a against the ramps you need to respect the wishes of your community. I would do a ballot vote and make sure to trow out the vote of any non due paying no voting memebers LOL. (in my experience most soap box owners do not own a vote) If you do get a ramp I would shy away from the NO SKATEBOARDING signs and opt for morer personalized signs. the reality of small children that cannot play on the equipment now and will never be able to skateboard may be more affective.