woops, double post

[ 03-18-2005, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: curlykidz ]

Just for the record, I do not think that the district or the school is trying to micromanage the PTSO's. I think that the operating structure may have been set up to ensure all liabilities were covered, and because if the school didn't handle the administrative aspects, there maybe wouldn't have been PTO's at all. We are a Title I school, and at the time this structure was purportedly decided, the area had an astronomical poverty rate. When Clinton did his tour of the five or ten most impoverished areas in the nation during his last term, this neighborhood was one of them. He ate dinner at a mexican restaurant two miles from where I built my house. This area is overwhelmingly minority (My kids' school is about 45% hispanic, 45% african american, 1% white and 9% of mixed race) and the immigrant population is really high. The area has all the stereotypical problems that seem to go hand in hand with marginalized populations. This part of town was, in the civil rights era, the 'black' part of town. Schools were terrible, businesses didn't build here, with the exception of a couple waste management facilities and convenience stores. A decent paying job meant commuting, and the access to other parts of town was limited to crowded surface streets. So this district has historically struggled with parents who had limited availability, either because they had long commutes or were working multiple jobs, even if they wanted to get involved. Factor in low literacy rates, and the number of people who had the time or ability to handle all the ins and outs of a business in their spare time was probably a challenge then, because I can say it still is now. In the time frame that this structure was set up, I wouldn't have set foot in this neighborhood and some people still think I was crazy to move here. There was a convenience store (since bulldozed) practically on the other side of the school boundaries where there was considerable drug and gang activity. If you think of a city block, the convenience sore was on the NE corner, and on the SW corner, the school occupies about 1/4 of the city block. The school had a policty that did not allow any of the staff on campus after 7PM for their own safety. Even three years ago, that intersection was published in the paper as having the highest number of gang related incidences in the entire metro area, in a city that is on the US top ten in size. A lot of the kids at this school are in single-parent homes or living with relatives, with the other parent MIA, incarcerated, etc. The city has done a lot to clean up the drug and gang activity, and given a lot of incentives for builders and businesses, so there is decent housing and the job opportunities have really improved in the three years we've lived here, but there are still a lot of problems. Almost every time I go to the grocery store I see someone who is setting money at the register as their grocery items are scanned and frequently have to stop the cashier because they put down their last bill before the last item got scanned. There are a lot of parents who were never taught how to manage a household budget, much less operate a small non-profit. I know this is all probably a lot of information y'all never really wanted to know, but those are the circumstances that most likely led to the district setting up the PTSO's this way.

[ 03-18-2005, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: curlykidz ]

Originally posted by JHB:
I wouldn't say that you are operating illegally - unless your organization is misrepresenting itself. And if the system works for you, and you have your administration's support - then why change anything?

At first I was really uncomfortable with the concept. But the more I examine it, based on what I know about this specific area, the more I think this may be in the best interest of the group, dependant on what controls are in place to ensure the funds are spent as they should be. The school held two informational meetings about the PTSO; I was present at both and one other person showed up half way through both. We were nominated and seconded by the faculty in attendance. From what I read here, it's pretty unusual for a PTSO meeting to have 6 staff members and two parents in attendance, but that's what we had. I know that as far as our volunteer program, there is a core of women who will be very active, but almost none of them speak english. My VP's competence is questionable. If we go completely independant, I don't know who will run it other than just me, how we'd provide insurance, etc.

Jeff,

Thanks, once again, for being a sounding board. I understand that the money, being under their EIN, legally belongs to them. That's one of my concerns, is whether the current operating structure allows parents control of the budget, provides any accountability to the parents as far as how the money is spent, and whether there are any controls in place to prevent the school from 'seizing' PTSO funds for unapproved use. As far as our PTSO being a serparate entity and not being supported/funded in any way by the school directly... what exactly does that mean? The school has provided all our supplies and copying, a staff member has done all of our spanish translating, etc. When I inquired about the PTSO paying for a third outdoor bulletin board for PTSO use, the principal said the school could provide it. When I asked the principal about insurance, she contacted the asst superintendant who responded PTSO school events (involving children, parents) are covered by the district’s insurance…things such as transporting parents to and from meetings, events is not covered. As it stands, the school/district is all of our operating costs.

I understand the difference between the National PTA and a PTO. The comment about the district deciding to go PTO vs. PTA was made by my VP, and for all I know the decision to form independant PTO's with the current operating structure was a collaborative decision between the board and the parents 10 years ago when this was purported to have happened. I spoke briefly with the community relations person at the district briefly; he provided me with his email address so I can send him a detailed inquiry over the weekend and he will either determine the answer or direct me to the person(s) who can, on Monday.

Back to the sanctioning... according to the school district, we are covered under their liability insurance. What other legal responsibilities they assume, that will be part of my inquiry to the district.

Who runs our PTO meetings? Well, on March 30, I will. Prior to now, nobody ran them. The PTSO has been defunct because all the active parents' children moved thru the grades to the 4-8 school and no one took their places. Until four weeks ago, the sole member of the board has been the treasurer who took it on at some point, I believe because she was already the 4-8 PTSO treasurer and no one at our school (parent/staff) was willing to. Who decides how our money is spent? Nobody has spent any money in five years. There have been no PTSO fundraisers organized in five years. The treasurer was able to pull for me minutes from the last time the PTSO was active and they are dated Dec 97 and Jan 98. The only attendees were herself, and two other teachers (one of which is still employed at our K-3). BTW, there is more money in the bank account today, than is listed on either of those minutes. According to the minutes, the pencil dispensing machine and t-shirt sale proceeds at the school at one time funded the PTSO; I'm not sure if either still does. I have a copy of our most recent bank statement and there is no activity on it. The minutes do outline procedures for funding requests. There is a requisition form that requires the signature of an officer and mandates that receipts must be turned into a PTSO officer. I think the requisition limit is $150, if I'm peicing this together right. Should all this be outlined in our bylaws? Of course they should... but as you know, I'm in the middle of writing bylaws because no one can put their hands on the existing ones, if there were any.

You have helped, rambling or not. Your questions are helping me examine the motivation behind this.

I wouldn't say that you are operating illegally - unless your organization is misrepresenting itself. And if the system works for you, and you have your administration's support - then why change anything?

The school is a government entity with its own EIN. It has personnel who are authorized to purchase goods (probably tax free) using that tax ID number. Unless the school has officially given PTO leaders authority to do so, they shouldn't be purchasing tax exempt items using the school's EIN. That action could be illegal (although, frankly, it's also very common).

If the funds collected are in account under the school's ID (EIN), then - yes - those funds do belong to the school. But is that a problem? Do other groups - athletics, school clubs, band - also have designated accounts set up in this way? Are you confident that your administration will continue to honor the intent of the PTO funds?

You might want to have a letter of understanding between the PTO and the school. How do the other groups handle it?

If you want total independence and absolute assurance that your group controls the funds then you need to be a completely seperate legal entity.

As is, it sound like you operate as more of a volunteer arm of the school - operating under its umbrella. They technically "own" the bank account but agree to preserve it for its designated purpose. If this works for you, leave it alone.

What becomes an issue is when you mix the two - when you try to operate as a separate entity, but you do it under their tax ID.

[ 03-18-2005, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: JHB ]

Curly,

When a group such as yours has their accounts under the schools EIN, legally the school is required to report this money not only to the district but to the IRS for taxing purposes. With most schools getting some sort of Federal or State funding to operate, your account can be construed as additional funds the school has. When I say "legally", I mean you are not supported or funded in any way by the school directly. Your group is a separate entity from the school and you should have your own by-laws, your own accounts (which would require your own EIN) and your own reporting. Right now....the school has the final say over PTSO funds because from a legal standpoint, the money belongs to them. It's under their EIN so, it would be interpreted that it's there money.

You mentioned that the district chose to go independent instead of PTA??? The district cannot tell you how to run your group. In our school district we have PTO's, PTA's, PTSO's....etc. It's each groups responsibility to determine which avenue PTO vs PTA best suits them. When you're a PTA you have to belong to the National PTA and you pay dues for membership and all that. A PTO works as an individual group and sets their own standards to meet their requirements. In a PTA you may have to pay say....$5 membership/family/year. A PTO can vote on a membership fee and if they collect one, it's considered funds for the group. I think your school district is overstepping it's boundaries. The only involvement the district should have is granting you permission to use school property for meetings, fundraisers....etc.

On the sanctioning part....let me rephrase that. The school can sanction events that you have. However, they must get approval from the district to do that. Things work differently, depending on the school, the district and such. When you're doing fundraising, it's to benefit the students of the school. Why??? Because you're a parent with a child there or a staff member of that school. The school itself doesn't benefit from what your group is doing......the staff and students do. If you have a hotdog sale at the school to raise money for band equipment. Someone comes down with food poisoning. Is the school or the district going to step up and say...this is our PTO so we'll assume responsibility for what happened??? Probably not....they didn't purchase the food or prepare the food and they're not going to want to assume any legal responsibility for what happened. That's why they don't normally sanction events.

Who runs your PTO meetings?? Do you have a board and make decisions on fundraisers and allow people to vote?? Who decides right now on how you're going to spend your money??? If the parents are raising the money and they are part of the group.....YES....they should have a say in how it's spent. First thing you need to do is get a new Treasurer. Right now you've got someone who's best interests are with the school. One of the parents from your group should have that job. How many signatures are required on your checks?? If it's only one....what's to stop her from writing checks without approval?? I'm not saying she's crooked....in fact I'd say she's not if all the money is still there. All I'm saying is...what's to keep her from throwing a pizza party for the whole school and spending all your money??? What steps does she have to go thru to get approval to spend money???

The main thing I'm trying to get across is right now your group doesn't have control of it's own destiny. There should be requirements set up and procedures on how fundraising is done and the process for spending money. Most of us are pretty honest but there are some crooks. My wife and I are both on our PTO...I'm the President and she's the Treasurer. Our checks require two signatures..her and I are 2 of the 3 who can sign a check. Our Principal is the 3rd. We're very honest and we only write checks when we're authorized to by the board or by the general assembly at a meeting. Some might say that's a dangerous approach having husband and wife on a checking account. We provide a detailed transaction report at every meeting and our books are always open for audit. I handle in excess of $50 million/year at work....I'm not going to jail for an $8k checkbook. I don't need money that bad.

Your group is your group and you shouldn't be under the microscope of the school or the district. You're raising the money and you should decide how it's spent. We work closely with our Principal and school staff and we make logical and informed decisions on how to spend the money. If we're going to buy something and one of the school staff objects or finds an alternate way of obtaining that material....we don't buy it. You can keep a good working relationship with the school and district and still be your own group. You should make your own decisions since it is "your" money.

Not sure if I've helped any....think I'm kinda rambling....thanks for letting me chime in tho.

Jeff
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